Armchair Genealogy - Family Tree & History

Jingle 0:00
Mell, the genealogy guide podcast, demystifying technology and exploring family tree research. Please remember to subscribe and share the podcast with family and friends.

Genealogy Guy 0:17
Welcome along to another episode of armchair genealogy with me, Mell, the genealogy guy who like you, is on the journey of family tree research. First of all, I want to say a big hello to everyone that was at the family history show in March at the three counties ground in Malvern. It's always great to meet up with like minded people and listen to the free talks and pick the brains of the experts and the local history groups, and I can highly recommend a visit check out the nearest one to you on their website at thefamilyhistoryshow.com now speaking with people at all levels of genealogy research, I find a couple of common topics that pop up once you get into the genealogy sideof things, it becomes very clear very quickly that you're developing skills that make you faster and hopefully more accurate. The second thing is, some people then want to be able to show their level of ability. So I looked around to try and get a clearer picture of what sort of things are out there. I thought it might be interesting to look into some of the various ways to get accredited, and I decided to speak to Dr Karen cummings at Pharos tutors.com spelt, P, H, A, R, O, S, tutors.com all one word. Now Pharos tutors are also partnered with the Association of genealogists and research in archives, the British Association for local history, the guild of one name studies, the Society of one place studies, and also the Society of genealogists. They do lots of varied courses, from getting started to becoming a professional genealogist, so let's find out more. Dr Karen Cummings, thank you for joining us today. And for those that are not familiar, could you share a bit about yourself and how you became involved in genealogical education?

Karen Cummings 2:13
Hello, Mell. It's lovely to be here. My background is actually in pharmaceutics, so not in genealogy at all. And like many of us, I got hooked when I started looking at my own family tree. I'd had stories from my mum when I was young about who all these great aunts were and and we had a fantastic family gravestone where multiple generations were listed, and she would talk through all who was who and who'd married who, and all these things. So I think, you know, like many other people, when I got married and were thinking about my own family, that's when I really got into it in more detail, and I pursued that as a hobby, and then that turned into something that I thought I'd like to do as my career instead. So I started off working as a professional genealogist, and then opportunities arose for me to also get into the teaching side of things. And I've been running a genealogy business since 2010 so I was a tutor at the IHGS in Canterbury (Institue of Heraldic Genealogical Studies). I've tutored at the Society of Genealogists, and I was also originally one of the tutors at Pharos tutors as well. Later down the line, I have the opportunity to purchase Pharos tutors and and that's where it's all kind of been going ever since, um, my feet haven't really touched the ground since then, as you can imagine.

Genealogy Guy 3:30
It must keep you very busy. So can you give us an overview of Pharos Tutors? What sets it apart from other genealogy education platforms?

Karen Cummings 3:38
Well, Pharos tutors is based in the UK, so primarily our courses are on research in the UK. So we've got lots on England and Wales. We've got lots on Scotland and Ireland as well. Everythingis online, so you don't need to leave your computer to do much ofthe work that you can do with Pharos. What sets us apart from others? I think the one of the main things that sets us apart from others is the opportunity to have a live interaction with the tutor every week, and it will be the tutor on your course, so that subjectexpert, that's possibly the biggest difference to some of the othercourse providers out there. But how the courses work is they're allshort courses, so they tend to be between three weeks and around six weeks at the longest and each week, students sent a set of lesson notes, and we've kept those in the PDF format for years now, because they can be easily downloaded and kept there's no sort of time limit on those that don't expire throughout the week, the student then works through those notes. There'll be activities to do, there'll be websites to visit, and hopefully they'll be able to apply the learning as they go to their own family history research as well. At the same time as working on those notes on their own, there is an online course forum that's dedicated to that course, and that's where they post their answers to their exercises. They can also raise topics chat with other students on the course, and so on and so forth. And then each week, as I said, there's a there's a live session with the tutor. More and more of those are now run by zoom, but we still run some of our text based chats, because that's what our students like to use. So we've, we've kept both of those going. So each week, then they kind of run through the topics that week, have a bit of a chat, and they have the opportunity to not only share experiences with other students, which I know the students found really helpful, is to see how you know what other people have found when they've looked at their family, but also to directly askquestions off the tutor, which is great. That's kind of the basis for how they all work. We do have some certificate programs as well. So some of those courses are then bolted together into certificate programs. We developed those with the Society of genealogists so that they're running partnership between the twoof us, and our Advanced Certificate is recognised by Agra, the professional body for genealogists in England and Wales. So essentially, you know, the appeal for Pharaoh's tutors can range from somebody that wants to become a professional genealogist, to somebody who thinks, Gosh, I really don't know enough about wills. I wonder if I can just take a short course on that. And that's what we you know, that's what we're all about. We're all about flexibility. If somebody just wants to take one of our advanced certificate courses on their own and not get marked on anything, they can do that absolutely fine.

Genealogy Guy 6:19
Once you get into genealogy, you realise it's a very emotional journey, and to have someone to sort of share you found out something that you didn't really understand and now you have tocome to terms with can be quite a helpful thing to sort of, Oh, I've been through a similar type of thing myself, so talking to another genealogist helps give that support

Karen Cummings 6:38
Absolutely. And we've all had those conversations with family members, haven't they, where we're super enthusiastic about our research, and you can see their eyes start to glaze over after the first five or 10 minutes, whereas when we have our groups with our students all together, they're amongst, you know, their own people. I remember an occasion where I had a group of people talking about their advanced research projects, which are quite comprehensive pieces of work, the joy they got from just being able to share that with other people that understood and were interested in the research that they were doing. So that's obviously a benefit as well.

Genealogy Guy 7:12
You're right, because it's people that eyes do glaze over, and you can go, I've spent hours to try and fix this and sort it all out. And here it is. And people go, Oh, that's nice. And you're going, that's taken me weeks, absolutely weeks. How is the rise of DNA testingand other technologies shaped? The way that the curriculum tries to give support to to the users,

Karen Cummings 7:35
DNA is definitely becoming more and a more important part of doing genealogy research. And we've got currently, we have an introduction to DNA. So that's the kind of the course that's aimedat people who are thinking, I really should learn a little bit more about this, and the people that have got their results and have looked at the fact they've got 20,000 plus matches and haven't got a clue where to start. So we've got a course that's based that's aimed at that level of people just getting started want to be more confident that they know what they're doing. We've alsogot in development, at the moment, an advanced DNA course which will focus purely on the autosomal DNA. So that's the one run by ancestry, MyHeritage and those kind of companies to and again, you know, as I always say during the DNA courses, it's not replacing traditional genealogy. You can never use it without using traditional genealogy. But you wouldn't say, Oh, I don't use census records. So in the same context, it seems to have to say, Oh, I don't use DNA. You know, use everything that you can to build your family tree.

Genealogy Guy 8:35
It's all about using the tools. It always comes back to bog standard, standard genealogy and all these other tools just help towards understanding and making that step. What about what about AI side of things? Are you finding that sort of gain traction?

Karen Cummings 8:49
Far as education goes, it is definitely increasing in momentum. I don't think we're quite at the point where we're going to have aI replacing student work, because obviously that's quite personal. There are already some fantastic tools out there for transcribing documents, which are definitely becoming more well used. I can'tthink of the others. I know. One of them is called transcribers. That's quite interesting, you know. But as far as we're concerned, we're not going to say, don't use the tools that are available to you. But AI is always a starting point. You always just, you know, with everything, I need to double check and do the work yourself as well. But it certainly is going to have, you know, increasing significance as we move forward.

Genealogy Guy 9:30
Do you see genealogy education evolving in any particular direction? You know, the what roles will the tutors play in the evolution? How are they going to help these people sort of master these, these new tools that keep coming online.

Karen Cummings 9:44
Well, it's difficult, isn't it, because the records themselves aren't going to change. So we'll always need to learn the basics of how how to use records. AI will help with things like searching online and so on and so forth. But actually, under. Understanding how arecord was created, why it was created, how it can be used in genealogy. You know what you might find, what you might not find, and understanding those things that's not going to change. It's perhaps the access to that information may evolve as technology moves forward.

Genealogy Guy 10:17
How did you make the step of becoming sort of the managing director of Pharos like, what? What possessed you to go? Oh!, I think I'll do this next.

Karen Cummings 10:25
It was a kind of fortuitous moment. To be fair, Helen Osborne, theprevious owner, mentioned to me that she was thinking of selling and it was one of those things where I thought, one day I'd like todo this, but why not just go for it now, you know, and I've always had enthusiasm for the courses, as all of our tutors. Do you know,the way of the the way of teaching has always appealed to me, because it's that getting the students involved and so on and so forth. So I think it was a kind of natural next step, really. Unfortunately, all happened during COVID, which caused problems along the way. But yeah, it's been brilliant. Really has.

Genealogy Guy 11:04
Things that happened over COVID made people work in a different way and make full use of the technology, things like Skype and it drove, there was a positive that came out of the negative. I think a lot of businesses and a lot of companies suddenly realised we have to embrace technology a lot more than what we have done.

Karen Cummings 11:24
Absolutely and we have got students now, five years later, that began their research when they were in lockdown and wanted something to do that they could do from home as well. It's had that impact. But certainly, you know, as we've moved forward with Pharos, we've rebuilt all the technology. Just because it had got to the point where it grown so big that what was originally in place was no longer suitable for the job it was doing. Very pleased with how that's all worked out, because now we've got fantastically built systems that all work together for students to to access all the course materials.

Genealogy Guy 11:58
Future plans. Is there anything that you can give away as like things that are in the pipeline?

Speaker 2 12:02
Always new courses in development. I don't think I've had a pointever when there's been nothing ongoing. So there are at least one or two courses that will be coming out this year. You've mentioned AI, that's something that we're going to be keeping ontop of and looking at as we move forward. But you know, we're always interested in new ideas from other people as well. Quite often we have tutors approach us and say, Hey, I've got this fantastic idea for this brand new course.

Genealogy Guy 12:27
Have you done your tree and how far back Have you managed to actually guaranteed?

Karen Cummings 12:32
Well, the problem I found with starting to do research for other people is that uses all the time you've got available. So it's been lamented journey for some while, because I haven't had as much time as I would love to have working on my own family tree. One of the things that I did discover quite early on, and I've spoken to many people that have had the same thing happen to them, is i i moved to where I live now, at the edge of Suffolk, purely for work reasons and what have you, having absolutely no idea that a whole branch of my family came from 10 minutes up the road, because where I grew up in the Midland, and I thought everybody came from around there. And as it happens, there's a huge, you know, branch of my family that came from Cambridges, Suffolk, Norfolk, all around those areas. So that's anarea I've been particularly interested in. And I've actually got a one name study on going for the Cowling surname, and would love to have more time to spend on that. And also, because one of my passions is using DNA. So there's a DNA project that goes with that. So, you know, I'll put out a plea if there's any male cowlings that are interested in finding out about their family history, I've got some DNA kits waiting if you're prepared to join the DNA project. But yes, I mean, I'd love to have more time whenI retire, perhaps I shall focus entirely on my own research. But it's, it's just as interesting doing other, you know, research for other people.

Genealogy Guy 13:55
I agree with you totally. You get wrapped up with trying to help other people or trying to do other things. I mean, I do the podcast, so I'm always thinking, I should be doing I should be doing genealogy, but there's just so many other things and people that I want to talk to and and gather information that it's finding that time and bringing it all together. So you're not alone with I work in genealogy, but I don't have time to do my homework. Time to grab a quick break and just to remind you that whatever platform you're listening on, you can get transcripts of any of the episodes which will have all the websites mentioned. If you've already subscribed a very, very big thank you, and if you haven't do it now, that way, you'll automatically be notified when a new episode comes out. So let's get back to our conversation with Karen Cummings from Pharostutors.comforest tutors.com,

Speaker 3 14:45
ArmchairGenealogy.com for generations of all ages,

Genealogy Guy 14:52
when you're setting out or trying to get someone that maybe comes to you cold and just goes, Oh, I'm thinking of doing it, but Idon't know where to start. Where do you usually say? Well, if you if you just want to dabble to get going, where do you usually say to people, go there and have a play and see what you think.

Karen Cummings 15:09
Obviously, the big websites are things like Ancestry andFind My Past, but you have to subscribe to those. But one of the things that not everybody realises that most of the libraries have got subscriptions to those. So if you want to access things, go down to your local library to get started, see if it's right for you. I would also tap into things like family, search website, which is amazing to get started. I would caution that it isn't actually as easy as typing your name in seeing what comes up like the experts tell you, it is, and you do need to do a little bit more checking and so on and so forth. But if somebody's really interested in starting their family tree, the first thing I would suggest is talk to relatives,particularly those of older generationsthat unfortunately won't be with us forever. Get stories. You know, it's all very well being left with a box of paperwork, but findout the stories. Find out things about what life was like at school when they were, you know, younger. Find out about, you know, military service. Find out about what it was like to live during the Second World War. These are the kinds of things that you just can't get from paper and research and websites. So, yeah, talk torelatives. Find as many photographs, ask people who they are, because that will also be lost. And you know, there's so many treasures that you can find in old attics and so on. I mean, I was lucky enough to discover that there was a family Bible that I didn't know anything about. And a few years ago, my uncle made me the custodian of this family Bible. It just happens to be the Cowling line as well, funnily enough. But, but, yes, I mean things like that. So, so get started slowly. Don't be tempted to justclick on every hint you see online, but talk to family would be definitely the first step.

Genealogy Guy 16:55
I'm a very big advocate. I'm I'm constantly saying to people who show a bit of interest, and I used to go, Well, if you do nothing else, just go around and, as you say, talk to the older members, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, anybody that's like within the family tree. And I always say, just, just, just record them. Use your phone. Make a cup of tea and record it. Because if you don't make the notes now, once they've gone, they have gone, you've lost all that treasure trove. And so I'm, I'm constantly saying to people, just record it. Just record it. You don't have to write a thing. Just have the audio. You can listen to it your heart's content at a later point, absolutely.

Karen Cummings 17:31
Absolutely and I think the other thing is, as well, you can be quite tempted, because you want to get started. You want to know everything. If you say to somebody, tell me about the family they they've gotten, you know, that's a pretty much a blank expression, isn't it? Nobody knows what, what you want to know about, or what's interesting and what's not. So, you know, find some photographs, find something to go like, Who are these people? What? What were they like and, and what did they do? Or some kind of visual prompt is brilliant to get conversation started. And if you do have a list of questions that you want to know, like, you know that you've got a missing great grandfather when was he born? Then maybe lead into that by just, you know, just having a chat, or just find some interesting stories first, and then lead into other questions.

Genealogy Guy 18:11
The older generation, I tend to find that a lot of the time they don't bother to say a lot, because they go, nobody's really interested. I've tried telling them, and they switch off. And you're right, if you've got a trigger, and you you're trying to find it, instead of going straight for the jugular, as they would say, is actually skate around it, show them a picture of a wedding and go. So who's, who were these family and where did they come from, and what, what did do? You know, what he did for a living? And things that just start, they start pouring out information. You're going, This is gold dust. This is like, I can't get this unless somebody tells me to get me started, I can go and look, look at which regiment they were in, because I now know they were in the army or the Air Force or whatever it is. It just helps to have that conversation. So I'm totally in support of gather what you can from those around you as you start your journey, because it'sgold dust,

Karen Cummings 19:00
And I can remember, you know, my poor father has obviously been plagued since, for the last decades or so, asking questions about this and asking questions about that, and then what Christmas dinner, he said, somebody said something about and that was the day the police called. And everybody was like, What? What is this story? And it was, oh, I won't go into the details of the very long story, but it was just, it's just the fact, it was something really fascinating that he hadn't thought was interesting. You know, he hadn't thought I wanted to know about stuff like that. So, yeah, just any questions, any prompts you have.

Genealogy Guy 19:32
If people want to find out more about Pharos and think this is for me, I want to, I want to learn more, as you've succinctly put, you can do it on a professional level, or you can just take bite sizes of and you can learn a little bit about a particular area, like, as you say, wills, which are a whole new language in their own right. So just looking at that sort of stuff, what's the best place that peoplecan go to to actually find a bit more information about Pharos

Karen Cummings 20:01
Yeah, well, obviously the Pharos website is www dot Pharos tutors.com, we have, if you go to the Courses page, you can split and slice and dice in many different ways. So if you just want to look at beginner courses, you can do that, but you can just search for a topic. I would also say that we do have some coursesthat we call anytime, courses that most of those are aimed at beginners. So if you just want to work at your own pace on something and just get started, and it will talk about those thingswe just talked about, like interviewing relatives and beginning and putting those first documents together. We have some of those courses called Foundations and family history courses to get started. There is also a page which course for me, which will give you some ideas. You know, are you interested in this kind of topic or that kind of topic? What level are you at? So there is lots of advice on the website as to how to get started.

Genealogy Guy 20:52
And your tutors are there to give support and advice. If they people have got a question going, I'm thinking of this. But will that help me in this particular course?

Karen Cummings 21:00
Absolutely. And we have students work in different ways. Some students join us because they want to do the certificate. Some students have heard about a course, and then they really like that tutor, so they then take all the courses by that tutor. Some courses have got particular topics. Sometimes some students have got particular topic of interest. So people come to different ways. And so what we've tried to do is make that because we've got, I think, 60 something courses now, so just looking through the list, you know, would be a bad idea. So there's lots of different ways of searching, you know, levels, certificates, tutors. You can search by all different things to find what it is you're looking

Genealogy Guy 21:35
I appreciate you can't give any names or anything of the people that are doing the course. Have you had some fantastic stories that people have stumbled upon something that was just not expected, or they found a piece of information that was like, wow, this is incredible. You've got an ancestor that's connected with blah, blah, blah.

Karen Cummings 21:52
Some of the ones I have found is, when I'm teaching methodology, I've had people actually discover that an entire branch of their family was wrong, which it sounds terrible, but it's actually brilliant, because it means they can now go and research the correct part of the family. And I think that some of the sadder stories are perhaps when I do the DNA course, because we do get people that find out that relatives that they thought they knew close to home, like grandparents or even parents turn out not to be who they thought they were. So you know that, and that's something that really, one of the things that the Course talks about is, what should you actually think about before taking a test, so that you've thought about these kind of unexpected findings? So we have some, you know, some funny stories, and we have some more serious and slightly sadder stories as well.

Genealogy Guy 22:42
When I asked the question earlier about the emotional journey, and DNA really does make a big difference on the emotional journey, because you have no idea what you're going to find out. You think you know, and then you it's like, be careful of what you ask about, because you might not like the answer. You get back and it's, it's factual. It's not like, oh, we think this. It's like, no, that's the DNA. That's, that's the way it is,

Karen Cummings 23:07
Absolutely and it also, I think, you know generally as well. There's,there's some things that we discover. Now, for example, if I find out somebody who's legitimate, now, wouldn't you know? Okay, so you're illegitimate. It's an interesting piece of information. But if I told my grandmother that when she was alive, she might havethought that was scandalous. So again, we're going back to talking to relatives. Some of the things that you might just think are interesting. They might really think it's, you know, we've always kept that hush hush. We don't want to talk about it. Divorce is another one not everybody wanted, and the other one,which was so common, is people that got married when the bump was quite a long way along, or perhaps had the baby just before the marriage. And quite often, those are things that wouldhave been hushed up. So what, what we would find interesting now could have been really sensitive a few generations ago, and I think I discovered my great grandmother was illegitimate, and I didn't tell some of the close, you know, the generations that were closer to that at the time, because they've since passed. I'm not revealing it now, but because I wasn't sure how would they would react to that information. So sensitivity is important, not just withDNA, but with with your questioning and with sharing some of the information you find as well.

Genealogy Guy 24:20
Once you've got that information from them, and you go away and collaborate and work with other people and find out whether it's true, is to take that back to them. Because sometimes you might go, Oh, I've discovered this. And you might think they're illegitimate, but you can word it in a way, like I can't make sense of these dates though. I mean, it doesn't seem to match up now. We go, oh, well, that's because they were born out of out of wedlock, and you go, Oh, and they feel as though they've helped you, and you're going, Yeah, that's just confirmed the story, and I knew about it, so I can now talk about it to them. Absolutely. That's a good one. The technology is moved forward at such a rate now that it's just incredible what you can achieve. And that's why I called the podcast. Armchair genealogy, because you you can do it from an armchair and a laptop and aniPad or a phone. How has it been for you, coming from the analog days, as I refer to them, and stepping into the technological world and then seeing how fast the technology is now just coming in at such a tremendous rate that if you're not embracing it, you're actually missing out on a lot of support and help

Karen Cummings 25:23
Absolutely. And I think there's always the good and the bad with these things isn't there. Because obviously, you know, having so much available to you, to you, at home, at your fingertips, is phenomenally important. It's brilliant. We can do family trees way quicker than we used to be able to. But at the same time, what I find really interesting talking to students is students that are more recent primary history addicts. Should we call them? Have only ever worked online, and it's the students that did it the old way, that tend to have already developed better methodology, because they were used to having to write it all down, wherever, whatever repository it was that they had to go to for, you know, just the fundamental sources, even, whereas now it's too easy to skip along and not have made the appropriate note. So in some ways, it's brilliant to have that all information. I think we're losing slightly the ability to actually think about what we're doing, analyze what we're doing, and be more confident in what we're doing. It's too easy to do a tree rather than it knowing it's your tree

Genealogy Guy 26:27
Again the software can go, well, here's some relatives, and you can click on it and just add them to your tree. And then when youlook back, you go down the wrong area of the country. There's noway that could be relation. But the software has just given you a suggestion. It's not saying this is factual, and you're right. You do have to double check, and the old method is still the best way, because you have to double check and double check the double checks, and you have to document the original document and see it, and not just have the transcription version, because the transcription version has been slightly like, sort of not transcribedproperly. The information on there, like a date of someone's birthday, can be completely changed and go, I've got the wrong person, and you lose them, and actually it's just a minor error. So again, finding the original document and seeing that document and going, Yeah, I'll agree with the transcription that is definitely right.

Karen Cummings 27:19
And the other thing is as well, because transcribers tend to have set boxes that they have to fill, there's quite often additional information on original records. Case in point I always use is, I've got a marriage, and it's somewhere different from where the two people live, but it absolutely said on the marriage record where they were from. So that gave you that additional piece of information. But I think, you know, I mean things like the online family trees get a bad press because so many people click on hint, click on hint, click on hint. But when you're first starting that's that you don't know that that information is not true. If you're presented with something, you think, well, maybe we'll you know that the website has told me this information, it must be correct. So I think we also need to understand that some of the people that built these areas in third trees have done so with the best intention, but it's a hint. And the clue is in the word there always needs to be verified. And this is all part of AI, as we talked about, this will get better as time moves forward.

Genealogy Guy 28:13
It is one of those, one of those things that you have to be very careful with what you gain. And I know a lot of genealogists set up things like what they call dirty trees, which is just a tree to muck around with some ideas that they think might be true but they haven't verified yet. And you have to be so careful in the settings to make sure that that doesn't get shared with anybody. Yeah, it gets picked up by the like ancestry or whatever. They go, Oh, great. Another tree. We'll just share that with people, and you're going, No, no, not this one. This is a made up one. I think it might be right, but I don't know

Karen Cummings 28:47
Absolutely

Genealogy Guy 28:48
Is there anywhere people can catch hold of you on a blog or a Twitter or

Karen Cummings 28:52
Actually, we've got a blog through our website. We're also, we're @pharostutors on, LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and we're also on blue sky as well. Now you'll find us on all of those platforms.

Genealogy Guy 29:07
Blue Sky is like starting to eat away. I've noticed it's gradually grown. It's took a while, but it's people are actually starting to go maybe I don't want all my data, like the way that they want to give it me, and I'd like to have some control. So it's good to see that make use of another platform, because it's it's the only way that the technology moves forward is people start experimenting with other stuff.

Karen Cummings 29:26
Oh and also, I should say, sign up to our newsletter, which you can do at the bottom of each web page, because that tends to be where we promote any upcoming offers or new courses. First,

Genealogy Guy 29:36
that's great advice. Well, all I can say is that anybody that's vaguely interested and wants to know more, I would recommend it's a place to start, because at least you're going to get some other people that are as enthusiastic about it as you are yourself.Because it is a very lonely job at times. And that's why local history groups and that are so popular, because people are just going, I'm just in my bedroom. All the time, and nobody knows what I do, but at least if you go along to a local family group, youcan actually share. And you come to a brick wall and someone go, oh, I had that, and what I did is this, and it's that, it's that sort of coming together that makes people feel as though it's going to be an easier job, because you can share your problems. Thank you very much, Karen, it's been a pleasure to chat to you, and I'm sure you'll get carrying on joining the course, because it's something that the last time I read it, so I think it's the second most popular hobby now, next to gardening. So genealogy is now the new new gardening craze, and then I look forward to seeing new courses coming online.

Karen Cummings 30:40
Brilliant. Thanks Mell. It's been great.

Genealogy Guy 30:42
And my thanks to Karen Cummings. And if you want to find out more about the various courses they deliver, then do visit Pharostutors.com Until the next time. Happy and productive research

Jingle 30:56
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